RCA Podcast: Does public art make shared spaces more inclusive or exclusive?

In this episode of the RCA Podcast, RCA President and Vice-Chancellor Christoph Lindner is joined by two leading voices working at the intersection of art, architecture, and public space:

• Sarah Staton Sculptor, educator, and Senior Tutor of the RCA’s MA Sculpture programme, whose permanent commissions explore how public works can foster connection across generations.
  
• Liza Fior Founding partner of Muf architecture/art and Professor of Architecture and Spatial Practice at Central Saint Martins, known for award-winning projects that put community at the centre of urban design.

Together, they discuss the evolving role of public art in shaping inclusive, democratic spaces, and the tensions between risk, ownership, and accessibility. The conversation ranges from postwar housing initiatives to contemporary commissions in Hackney and Milton Keynes, asking:

• Who feels welcome in public spaces, and who does not?
  
• How can artists and architects resist displacement and commodification?
  
• What role can public art play in the future of our cities?
  

Listen now:

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Recorded in May 2025

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:44:23

Sarah Staton

When I'm making work, I will go and visit the site. A lot of times I'll make assessments about the kind of geographic condition and all of this thing. But what I'm really interested in is who lives there. You know, I like this idea of social anchors.

Liza Fior

Culture, commodification and displacement are interconnected. And we know for London that when neighborhoods become comfortable for those seeking authenticity, that very act of seeking is likely to be destructive.

00:00:45:04 - 00:00:59:15

Liza Fior

We can also recognise that there is potential mechanisms for avoiding displacement.

00:00:59:17 - 00:01:30:00

Christoph Lindner

Does public art make shared spaces more inclusive or exclusive? We're living in a time marked by division socially, culturally, politically. A time in which art is often seen, probably optimistically, as a force that brings us together. So art is a tool for understanding, for empathy, for creating a sense of belonging. But when art enters public space, do things become more complex?

00:01:30:02 - 00:01:56:15

Christoph Lindner

And of course they do. And we might ask, whose stories are being told? Who feels welcome? Who does not feel welcome? And how can we ensure that public art does not unintentionally contribute to displacement, to gentrification, or just to a sense of exclusion? So that's what we're going to explore in today's episode of the RCA podcast. And my name is Christoph Lindner.

00:01:56:15 - 00:02:41:05

Christoph Lindner

I'm the president and vice chancellor of the Royal College of Art. And today, our episode is coming to you from the cool sound studio on our Kensington campus. As we also escape a bit of the heat of our warm, beautiful day here in central London. I'm really thrilled to be joined by two brilliant minds. Working at the intersection of art and architecture and public environments, Sarah Staton is a sculptor, an educator and a key figure in contemporary British art, someone whose work invites us to expand our thinking on what sculpture is and who it's for.

00:02:41:07 - 00:03:16:04

Christoph Lindner

As the senior tutor of the RCA's MA Sculpture programme, Sarah brings her deep knowledge and her curiosity to both her teaching and her practice. She championed sculpture’s potential to create vital landmarks and social hubs in an increasingly homogenised public realm. Let's come back to that. And in her recent impact study at the RCA, Sarah revisited three of her permanent public commissions exploring how public art can foster community and connection over the long term.

00:03:16:06 - 00:03:56:05

Christoph Lindner

We're also thrilled to be joined by someone equally committed to shaping public space. Liza Fior, founding partner of Muf architecture, Art and professor of architecture and spatial practice at Central Saint Martins, known for their pioneering work at the intersection of architecture, art and social practice, Muf has led urban design projects that keep community at the center. From the award winning transformation of East London's Barking town square to a thought provoking exploration of London's Olympic legacy, which was showcased at the Venice Biennale.

00:03:56:07 - 00:04:24:16

Christoph Lindner

Liza's work has earned international recognition for its radical, empathetic approach to the built environment. Welcome, Liza and Sarah. So let's jump into today's topic, and I'd love to begin with the big question, which is bringing us together for our conversation. And the question is, does public art make shared spaces more inclusive or exclusive? Where would you start?

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:59:17

Sarah Staton

I'm going to say, this is a complicated question, and one of the things that I think is really very true about public art is that it's extremely contingent upon, context. So the time that it's created plays out as a very important factor. And it's subject to very kind of local conditions. So the public art that we see in the UK is going to differ, in quite a strong way from public art made in other contexts in other countries.

00:04:59:19 - 00:05:22:08

Sarah Staton

And then, you know, if we look at public art, its trajectory through the 20th century, very, very different to what's coming up in the 21st century. So it's a complicated question. So that makes sense. There's a history to public art, this context. There's geography, there's politics that shape changes. But also I'm not sure it's clear what public art is.

00:05:22:08 - 00:06:05:18

Christoph Lindner

So how do you even know if art that you are encountering in a public space is public? So what makes it public?

Sarah Staton

I think that's a really interesting thought. I guess, I again, kind of thinking a bit historically, one of the drivers in this country, was was the kind of postwar governments wanting to, be quite patrician in the way that they kind of brought people together after the Second World War in terms of developing housing and commissioning art as part of that process, very embedded, initiatives like the Sculpture Garden at Battersea Park, which was an idea to take art out of the gallery and put it into spaces where

00:06:05:18 - 00:06:28:18

Sarah Staton

people who might not enter through the gallery would encounter it. So we have a very kind of local connection at Royal College, especially at the other campus, with that kind of trajectory of public art, which is a historic situation now. We think about this incredible artist, William Mitchell, who was employed by the Greater London Authority as the decorator who created public art on buildings.

00:06:28:20 - 00:06:50:13

Sarah Staton

And so that trajectory might be, in terms of its relationship to housing, might be kind of a decorative kind of way of creating public art. And then in the park are much more, you know, the focus was very much on family groups. The, the government was interested in bringing the family back as an idea of to the dispersion and the, disruptions of war.

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:19:10

Liza Fior

So, yes, I suppose one can think who's commissioning. That's one thing. What makes, you know, what makes art ‘public art’. And I was in in terms of Muf’s practice, we have always said that we don't we only make public spaces. But that definition, you know what? What makes a public space? Is the Science Museum, which had 2 million visitors, a public space? Some of those people are buying tickets.

00:07:19:12 - 00:07:55:03

Liza Fior

The schoolchildren of Britain go free. So in terms of a sort of, Geiger counter of public notice, we decided, yeah, that is that is enough public space. Other places you can wander more or less freely. Some public spaces are privately owned public spaces. So the idea that is it that art is this is in the spaces that one can encounter freely a public art or is it that the question that's being asked is, where and how is it -

00:07:55:08 - 00:08:29:11

Liza Fior

is it made? And I think that the I'm quite interested in what are the structures that allow for making space for an art practice, and that if you make space within a building project for something that is a little bit more open ended uncertainty, you're introducing that word risk. And so much of the production of our built environments is one about an avoidance of risk, which attempts to imagine everything that could possibly happen and describe a route through it.

00:08:29:13 - 00:09:10:16

Liza Fior

How do you make space for something which is perhaps more open ended and just to sort of end with the word bespoke? Because, in all our work, we believe that there's deep value in something made with a degree of precision to, a people's, a site. And that perhaps surprisingly, the more bespoke, the more likely it's open to interpretation. To make something that's going to be everyone will like, which somehow flattens out difference makes it more likely that you will not be able to find yourself there.

00:09:10:21 - 00:09:44:03

Liza Fior

So I think that that's something which is worth thinking about is one of the value of a commission is is that it is slightly disruptive. I think that can be very uncomfortable for the artist. The idea they're supposed to own and represent, difficulty if there isn't that organisation and respect for the value that that might bring.

Christoph Lindner

So I love this way of thinking about public art as introducing some kind of risks, some kind of uncertainty.

00:09:44:05 - 00:10:13:14

Christoph Lindner

And you talk very beautifully about the conditions that might be needed to make it possible for someone who's developing or reshaping a public space to embrace or accept that level of risk. But I think that way of thinking about public art maybe stands a bit in tension with more traditional, conventional approaches, which see public art as something that's there to comfort, to soothe, to familiarise.

00:10:13:16 - 00:10:47:00

Christoph Lindner

So I wonder, if in your practice you're finding that people developing public spaces or public projects, public buildings, are more interested in risk? Or are we finding that actually that's being that's harder and harder to do?

Liza Fior

Number one, I think post Grenfell rightly, the built environment and it's professionals must start thinking about consequences and the consequences and need to also be the unintended consequences.

00:10:47:02 - 00:11:15:10

Liza Fior

That risk of harms need to be separated from the, from unknowns. And, I'm just what, what I'm something we're proud to have done is to come up with a way that anxiety and it's an on the part of our clients, the contractors of how do you design in space for the unknown? And, we came up with the term ‘plonkables’.

00:11:15:12 - 00:11:47:20

Liza Fior

So the plonkables i.e. the thing that was you can go and get from place a and bring to place B is you could say the enemy of site specificity and making space for an element that can come in quite late in the build so it doesn't slow down putting in the services or getting the foundations built because you've made space for something that might take longer to simmer.

00:11:47:22 - 00:12:16:15

Liza Fior

So, so a sort of space with slow cooking within this fast track process is something that we came up with.

Christoph Lindner

It's a beautiful way to think of it. And Sarah I will never, ever, ever describe sculpture as a plonkable art form. But it makes me think if we have spaces that are open for intervention, for risk, for exploration, how do you approach, creating sculpture for public spaces?

00:12:16:17 - 00:12:40:05

Sarah Staton

Well, I definitely like this idea of the slow cooking, because I think that's really vital. And I think plonkable art is very against - it doesn't take any consideration. It doesn't consider the social aspect at any given site. So I find that when I'm making work, I will go and visit the site a lot of times I'll make assessments about the kind of geographic condition and all of this thing.

00:12:40:05 - 00:13:01:09

Sarah Staton

But what I'm really interested in is, is who lives there. You know, I like this idea of social anchors. So I could give an example of one of my very early commissions, which was for the Crucible Theater in Sheffield, which you probably know is the home of World Snooker. And this is an incredible and a theater and the design for flow in the most brilliant way in the 1970s.

00:13:01:11 - 00:13:22:08

Sarah Staton

And I thought the last thing they really needed was a piece of art. So in that context, I look to see where, what maybe was missing in the architecture. And one of the things that I thought was missing was a bench for older people to come and sit on - a meeting space in the foyer. There was nowhere to sit, nowhere to perch.

00:13:22:10 - 00:13:45:16

Sarah Staton

And I created this giant bench. And it was a it was not just a bench. It was located in front of a window so you could see it from right across the square and inside of the bench to had a kind of lighting system that sat inside the the whole whole bench scenario. And it was on a very, it was kind of computerised so that the whole thing hummed very gently with lights like your computer does.

00:13:45:22 - 00:14:06:22

Sarah Staton

And then for every hour it burst into a kind of frenzy of light activity. So it was a slow clock. And, I just thought was a great opportunity to make that. And you could fit an entire class of children on it, small children on it, or older people who didn't want to stand up for ages while they're waiting for their friends.

00:14:06:24 - 00:14:39:06

Sarah Staton

It was for them, and it was just a lovely opportunity to insert something into what was already a very beautiful design context that didn't need just a sort of tokenistic decoration.

Christoph Lindner

So then if we look at this maybe a little bit more from the perspective of the public, I wonder our shared spaces and the artworks that we place within them becoming more difficult to interpret, read and even experience.

00:14:39:08 - 00:15:06:23

Christoph Lindner

So, for example, I increasingly find it impossible to determine when I'm walking into a space. Is it private? Is it public? How do I how do we know anymore? Is that something that should be legible in the way that a space is designed? Does it need to be labeled? Should there be signs? Do those categories even have meaning anymore when it comes to publics, are there any publics truly public spaces left?

00:15:07:00 - 00:15:30:13

Christoph Lindner

So when I think about the complexity for a visitor to a space to try and interpret what that spaces and what its status is in the world, in society, and then what is this object or this experience within it that is there for me as the visitor? And then how do I interpret that experience or object and then relate it to the space and then relate it to my life?

00:15:30:15 - 00:16:08:07

Christoph Lindner

I'm wondering, are we doing enough to, make it possible for visitors to any public space, to really engage with art in a way that is accessible, inclusive, interactive? Or are we actually creating evermore intimidating encounters? What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah Staton

Well, I I'm just it's making me think about a project that I worked on last year with under the guise of Spatial Value Research Catalyst, which I work on at Royal College with Rut Blees Luxemburg.

00:16:08:07 - 00:16:33:14

Sarah Staton

And we did a project with the MFA students, and we focused the project on the the zone opposite between the river and the Royal College at Battersea. And there's a Foster's building that is now 20 years old. And we, we worked with Fosters as well, and we were able to see the original plans for that site. And that one of the students picked up on, exactly this issue, which sections of this land is private and what's public?

00:16:33:16 - 00:17:04:09

Sarah Staton

And she found all the all the maps, and she found that the benches there in the public realm are the borders between the public and the private zones. And her proposal was to create a badminton game where the benches became the net and people would play badminton across the public private. And it was very successful. And we also worked with Hutchinsons, who are the landlord there, and they were supportive of and, we were able to stage this badminton game during last year's show.

00:17:04:11 - 00:17:38:01

Sarah Staton

And the people who, who live in that round building, it's Collingswood Albion is called up in that site. They they were very, very excited because they're residents, but they're also disconnected from their inhabitation. They don't know each other. So it was a really fantastic opportunity to very playfully look at exactly this subject.

Christoph Lindner

And that's a great example of a project that brings people together, creates a sense of belonging, of place, but also of community.

00:17:38:03 - 00:18:07:06

Christoph Lindner

Liza, do you have examples that you say

Liza Fior

yeah, I think it's very it's a great question because things were clearer, like people refer a lot to the Commons, but the Commons were never a free for all. They were owned by somebody who gave very specific rights of use. So, you know, if you had the right to wash and dry your clothes in Moorfields or, bring cattle to pasture, you're pretty clear of what your rights of use were.

00:18:07:06 - 00:18:43:17

Liza Fior

And then there were pedestrian routes where you could cross those two different activities. And now I think public art and other, modes of, of careful design can be explicit about the invitation that this is for you. So and we're working currently on some new investment in Hackney Town Square, a formal unlisted space. Some grand town hall steps, which are used not for wedding photographs, but also where Diane Abbott came back to meet her supporters.

00:18:43:19 - 00:19:38:20

Liza Fior

And, so staying within within politics and there is the, Thomas Price sculptures, Warm Shores, which are two figures, which are at a larger than life scale, commissioned to mark Windrush, selected through a, quite expansive process of involving people in their selection. And so because of working there, we've had the opportunity of just witnessing the encounters between alive people and these two oversize, figures and seeing people in discussion with them, reacting to them, and that it does bring that idea of somewhere which is very explicitly public, as the town hall square.

00:19:38:22 - 00:20:16:13

Liza Fior

That commission does reiterate that democratic spaces continuously, need to be made, especially because there's all sorts of spaces of, democratic of celebration, discussion and protests happening alongside the weddings and, people sitting on the steps eat their lunch. So that idea of public spaces based on more than one thing at a time, a public art commission, can it can become a live component in keeping that going.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:59:15

Liza Fior

But other examples are just very small ones. The choice of putting a child size bench is a statement of intent that this isn't just for one, bit of demographic and harking back to Barking Town Square, the choice to build a ruin in that space where there was a huge amount of development and a huge amount of discomfort about change, and so choosing to build something that was handmade brick by brick that old trades were making, it did mean that it was able to, generate a lot of discussion, including fantasies about how it got to be there.

00:20:59:15 - 00:21:25:02

Liza Fior

So that idea that discourse and questioning is sort of part of how to make that invitation you was saying was so important, I think. All right. Very long answer. You can cut it all.

Christoph Lindner

But but a very important answer. And I think we need we need a lot more of that kind of optimism and that kind of insight into how the social exchanges and conversations that can happen.

00:21:25:02 - 00:21:49:20

Christoph Lindner

Because people are encountering experiencing art in public shared spaces and the democratic value of that. All of that seems really, really urgent in today's world. And so I feel a little bit bad taking the conversation in this direction, but I want to maybe see if we can explore a little bit what you might describe as the darker side of public art.

00:21:49:20 - 00:22:39:13

Christoph Lindner

And what I mean by that is, you share really, poetic, inspiring, positive, productive examples of art that is thoughtful about its place, thoughtful about context that is designed to create exchanges within the local community that add to that community. So that's one version of public art in shared spaces. But I'm going to describe another version and let me know if this is something that you recognise as well, which is art that is placed in shared spaces to claim to own it, where the design almost feels like it's trying to stop you from going there.

00:22:39:13 - 00:23:07:20

Christoph Lindner

Spending time lingering, talking to others. And it links to the other question I want to ask about, which is the role of public art in gentrification. So using art to unlock the transformation of a site or neighborhood in a way that leads to the displacement of local community and the pricing out of local communities. Liza in you recognise that?

00:23:07:22 - 00:23:38:04

Liza Fior

Oh, yeah, I guilt as charged. I mean, I recognise it, we, lucky enough to have had a very long relationship with Dalston, where we were present at a meeting which there was discussing what would a public art commission be spent on? And it was coming after the demolition of the Four Aces Club, which was a significant site for the history of black music in the UK.

00:23:38:06 - 00:24:12:21

Liza Fior

And there was the question of should this be still sculpture? Should it be stone? And, and the reasoning for the commission was there was no culture in Dalston. And that was a prompt for us to do an act of mapping of cultural and community organisations. And step by step, it became, the argument for an investment in the existing, production of culture.

00:24:12:23 - 00:25:00:03

Liza Fior

And, that was something which was there and unspoken about and that tension of identifying existing culture and the danger of identifying it is, is definitely there. Culture, commodification and displacement are interconnected. And we know for London that when neighborhoods become comfortable to those seeking authenticity, that very act of seeking is likely to be destructive, that as rents and property get greater, the idea of space for exploration and experimentation is less likely to be there.

00:25:00:05 - 00:25:31:13

Liza Fior

But we can also recognise that there is, potential mechanisms for avoiding displacement.

Christoph Lindner

In today's world, in a city like London, which is constantly developing and going through constant change, to what extent to the larger issues and battles around the future of a city like London? To what extent do you need to contend with those as an artist working in a place that lots and lots of people will visit?

00:25:31:15 - 00:26:00:02

Sarah Staton

I think you you do need to take those all on board, and then you need to figure out some kind of way to to incorporate your kind of resistance somehow within what you propose. I think it's it's really challenging as an artist who's aiming to give something to the social community, who will be living with the work. You do want to think about that?

00:26:00:04 - 00:26:20:14

Sarah Staton

When, a long, long time ago, I did a commission in Westminster in the center of the Peabody Courtyard, and that was one of the commissions that I revisited recently on this impact study that I did. And at the time, the proposal was that the courtyard garden, which had been used for parking, would be changed and it would become a garden with sculpture.

00:26:20:16 - 00:26:47:18

Sarah Staton

And one of the residents was coming down continually to really upset about this. She didn't like the noise. I didn't like the change. And then I sort of said one day, well, they did think of building a tower here, but luckily they decided to garden. And then after that she did ease off. And when we went back, it was very touching to see what those sculptures have, have, what they mean to the people who live with them.

00:26:47:20 - 00:27:07:18

Sarah Staton

And I re-met, completely by accident, young men who had been in my school workshop when they were kids.

Residents of Peabody Courtyard

It's definitely made a positive impact on the kids that grew up here, 100% definitely It’s mad that it’s held up all these years - we used to climb up on it and jump off it. I would love to be able to bring my children to a playground one day, go home

00:27:07:20 - 00:27:39:22

Residents of Peabody Courtyard

“Oh, by the way, daddy designed this” - do you know what I mean! You should be really proud because this is such a good medicine.

Sarah Staton

So Peabody housing when it was properly social housing has had such an incredible impact on continuity of occupancy for more vulnerable communities. And that was extremely moving to find that these people were still able to live in Westminster, 400 yards away from Westminster Palace and, you know that they, they own their yard.

00:27:39:22 - 00:28:17:07

Sarah Staton

And the my sculptures were part of that was very humbling.

Liza Fior

Answering your question is now, about the the dangers of art and its place and art practice with, development and is, a complicity for those professionals working in that setting. I think your point, Sarah, that, you know, anger is a very pure form of commitment to place, something which, as the outsider, as a commissioned professional, we have to be deeply respectful of.

00:28:17:09 - 00:28:58:16

Liza Fior

And I think that that's thinking about how one negotiates that. It does bring to mind our long, involvement in Dalston, a place where large scale development happened at displaced and a demolished, a building which I don't think would be demolished now, namely the Four Aces Club. And the way that through a series of events, the angry residents were able to be co authors of a different way of a bottom up form of making public spaces, which now is the the problem.

00:28:58:16 - 00:29:32:14

Liza Fior

The problem characters are actually leading a the, the, fulcrum really. The Dalston eastern curve does still have studio buildings around it, as well as other community resources. And that development is sort of finding a way around. It is not a perfect success because many schools closing in Dalston, in Hackney, because the populations are being displaced by, property values.

00:29:32:16 - 00:30:02:19

Liza Fior

And even though Hackney Council is building more council housing than most - social housing - than most local authorities is still can they, can they catch up and keep pace. So I think that awakeness to context, which includes a political context and some very furious individuals, is something that can't be, brushed over but has to be, as as Sarah says, you have to go and have the conversation.

00:30:03:00 - 00:30:35:22

Sarah Staton

This also, you know, this doesn't have to be this way. We don't have to have cities where every - where families are priced out. I was just we were chatting previously and Zurich had this policy in the early 90s to counter the fact that city families were moving out and they built they invested in fantastic housing co-ops and built large scale units in a very, very intelligent way that are extremely pleasant to visit and stay in.

00:30:35:24 - 00:31:07:03

Sarah Staton

And the government, has has choices about how they, allow development to happen. And it would be so fantastic if they, thought about this a bit more deeply.

Christoph Lindner

So we've talked a lot about how people respond to different art projects. Really interesting to hear about some of the emotions that projects can provoke. Especially, anger.

00:31:07:05 - 00:31:37:21

Christoph Lindner

But what about the unnoticed art out there? So what about people, who may walk past an artwork in a public space because it's not recognised as art or too busy? We've talked a lot about slowness and speed. What if you're too busy to pause and stop? So I'm just wondering to what extent in our contemporary environments we have public spaces with public art, but we're not enjoying them.

00:31:37:21 - 00:32:02:17

Christoph Lindner

We're not engaging with them. We're not benefiting from what they bring to our places and communities because we don't have the time to stop, or we don't have the interest or any number of reasons why we might not engage. Or maybe we don't even recognise something as art.

Sarah Staton

Yes. Well, I think, public art is often brought in to deal with all sorts of problems.

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:24:24

Sarah Staton

And I don't know if it's capable of solving the problem of people being too busy. However, I have thought about this quite a lot, and I often think when I'm creating work that that it's really there for young people and the grandparents because everyone in between is generally too busy. And of course, lockdown changed that a bit.

00:32:24:24 - 00:32:47:14

Sarah Staton

And, when I went back on referencing this impact study again, people are working at that point last summer, are still working at home a lot. And then one of the people that we talked to said that the public art that I created at Milton Keynes was really good, because he could go there when he needed to make a call and he wanted to get out of the house.

00:32:47:16 - 00:33:09:17

Local resident in Milton Keynes

And there was no other noncommercial destination in his environment. The post-pandemic world, with the working from home a lot. This kind of gives, when everyone can have like a phone call with someone that I don't have to be at my desk for. This is like a really nice destination to come out. And I often come up here and do some calls and, just get out, enjoy the statue, enjoy the view.

00:33:09:23 - 00:33:20:01

Local resident in Milton Keynes

It's a destination place. It didn't really have, a noncommercial destination before.

00:33:20:03 - 00:34:05:10

Liza Fior

Another pandemic lesson. Well, two one is, one is perhaps we can say public space as well as public art. The space for more than the so-called productive and, space of production. And so one one example was Trafalgar Square. The National Gallery locked, but still was security guards. During the summer of 2021, the grass was still mowed and it's - the National Gallery is flanked by these skinny lawns, which were taken out by an unusual mixture of some unhoused people,

00:34:05:12 - 00:34:27:13

Liza Fior

and teenage girls. This, this, this mixture of who was there. And the teenage girls were skateboarding. Skateboarding, sometimes a little bit close to the stone facade. And, they were rushed off by security guards. And I asked them what they were doing there, and they said, this is where we practice, and when we're good enough, we move to the South Bank.

00:34:27:15 - 00:34:52:01

Liza Fior

And there was just something beautiful about the idea that Trafalgar Square is the place to practice your skateboarding. I think they were appreciative the fourth plinth was there as as a sort of guardian, as well as the, security staff in the National Gallery telling them not to go too far with, what they were practicing. So I thought they found that very strong and potent.

00:34:52:04 - 00:35:20:18

Liza Fior

And the second example is Brixton Recreation Center, where we again, we were lucky enough to be working where there is a space that was originally designed as a bowling hall is filled with columns, which was, for practical reasons, but it meant that during the pandemic, it was also big enough as a space for emergency food. And you might say that's a funny comparison to make this huge hall and public art.

00:35:20:24 - 00:35:56:14

Liza Fior

But the idea that it's there's a degree of excess is not entirely the smallest space necessary or the least, care by making space for art is to think ;what else do we need to make space for?’ and the need for a little bit of excess and also, environment.

Christoph Lindner

Those are really interesting words. Practice. Excess. All the different ways in which public spaces can be activated, experienced in use beyond what they are originally intended for.

00:35:56:15 - 00:36:29:12

Christoph Lindner

And before we wrap up our conversation, one final thing I wanted to ask you both was looking to the future, imagining the future of public art. What do you think is something we can and should do to make shared spaces more inclusive?

Sarah Staton

Well, I definitely think that public sculpture has a role in this. As the urban design becomes increasingly homogenized due to sort of budgetary constraints and yield ambition on the part of the developers.

00:36:29:14 - 00:37:23:15

Sarah Staton

I think public art for its bespoke and particular quality, is a vital part of the contemporary public realm.

Liza Fior

And I'd say, don't be complacent. You know, that the current administration has not mentioned the public sphere, that the budgets are continuously reduced. And we didn't talk today about the the difference between capital spend and spending money on perhaps more durational work, temporal temporary work, participative work, work that requires four spaces to be unlocked and stuff to be brought out and people to be able to make things, that's, political with a small and capital P.

00:37:23:17 - 00:37:54:15

Liza Fior

So, before we think about what's the future of public art, I think we have to all fight hard for a public sphere for all of us.

Christoph Lindner

And that is a beautiful note on which to bring our conversation to a close. But thank you so much, Sarah and Liza. Thank you for your brilliant insights in what's been a really rich and challenging conversation, with lots to think about and really, I can't wait to leave the studio, go straight outside and look for a piece of public art and see if I can identify some public space.

00:37:54:17 - 00:38:10:07

Christoph Lindner

But thank you so much as well to our listeners. And we do hope you'll join us for more episodes of the RCA podcast.

Liza Fior

Thank you very much.

Sarah Staton

Thank you Liza and Christoph, thank you.

Liza Fior

Thank you.

00:38:10:09 - 00:38:44:00

Outro

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