What is more important to a successful creative career: talent or an entrepreneurial mindset?

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In this episode of the RCA Podcast, RCA President and Vice-Chancellor Christoph Lindner is joined by Zey Suka-Bill, the RCA’s Pro Vice Chancellor for Education and Student Success, and Damien Roach, PhD Researcher in the RCA's School of Arts & Humanities, to discuss what it actually takes to build a life in the creative industries today.

• Professor Zey Suka-Bill, the RCA’s Pro Vice Chancellor for Education and Student Success. Zey is an expert in inclusive pedagogy with over 25 years of leadership experience, and she is currently redesigning the institutional systems that bridge the gap between creative education and professional equity.
  
• Damien Roach, an artist, researcher, and PhD candidate at the RCA. Damien’s work spans the experimental and the commercial - from sharing his work at the Tate Modern and SXSW Festival, to design commissions for global brands like Disney and Caribou.

Together, they discuss:

• What it means to have an 'entrepreneurial mindset'.
• The value of building your creative network during postgraduate study
• How early-career creatives can maintain their voice and values while navigating commercial pressures.
• How a multi-hyphenate career can help build a more sustainable and resilient professional life.
• The positive side to 'failure' and the importance of feedback.

Recorded on 1 April 2026

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:04

Damien Roach

What really matters to you? What do you actually want to spend your time thinking about and doing? I think finding nice things and holding on to them and nurturing them is so key.

00:00:23:06 - 00:00:54:22

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

If we are to push forward, if we are to get something new and to really deal with some of the real inequalities in the world, it's not going to come from. Yeah, emerging technologies is going to come from a creative background. People that understand criticality know how to answer questions, know how to ask the right questions in order to get new answers into the world.

00:00:54:24 - 00:01:25:00

Professor Christoph Lindner

In the creative industries, talent is often seen as the starting point. The thing that gets people excited about you, the passion that fuels your career. But in a landscape defined by shifting markets, by new tech, and by the rising cost of living, we really need to consider the skills needed beyond the craft. My name is Christoph Lindner, and I'm the President and Vice Chancellor of the Royal College of Art.

00:01:25:02 - 00:02:00:04

Professor Christoph Lindner

And in today's episode, we're asking what is more important to a successful creative career? Is it talent? Is it an entrepreneurial mindset? Or maybe something else entirely? And when we talk about an entrepreneurial mindset, we're really talking about creative agency, the ability to see your work as part of a larger system. You know, the ability to navigate risk, to build a very broad, practical skill set to support your career and to help us get into this topic.

00:02:00:06 - 00:02:32:09

Professor Christoph Lindner

I'm joined by Professor Zey Suka-Bill, who is the RCA's Pro-Vice-Chancellor for Education and Student Success. Zey is an expert in inclusive pedagogy with over 25 years of leadership experience. And she is currently redesigning the institutional systems that bridge the gap between creative education and professional equity. We are also joined by Damien Roach, an artist, researcher and PhD candidate at the RCA.

00:02:32:11 - 00:02:59:19

Professor Christoph Lindner

Damien's work spans the experimental and the commercial, from sharing his work at the Tate Modern and South by Southwest Festival to design commissions for global brands like Disney and Caribou. Really excited Zey and Damien to have you with us. Thank you for joining me. And just to get us going in the conversation, we'd love to hear a little bit about your own paths through education and into your careers.

00:03:00:00 - 00:03:04:08

Professor Christoph Lindner

How did you start and how did you keep going? Zey?

00:03:04:10 - 00:03:42:03

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Well, thank you, and it's lovely to be part of this conversation. Creative education, I suppose, has always played a part in my life. I was a child who didn't particularly like reading and didn't particularly want to build things. I just really wanted to be able to capture memories and concepts. And so it was really important that we always have that kind of documentary process within our life.

00:03:42:03 - 00:04:07:07

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I, you know, I have books from when I was five of like, doodling, like, this is what my grandmother said or looked like. And I felt like it was really important and the art was really important before I even knew what it was. And that took me down the path of, you know, an undergraduate in photographic arts, a master's in photography.

00:04:07:07 - 00:04:36:16

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

But lately, I've been really thinking about just the system, those that have brought us all here today, including education and universities and how universities really do need to help students have confidence, confidence in their kind of art practice. And I think that's what, our education gave to me. And that's what I really would like to give to, to other people.

00:04:36:18 - 00:04:38:23

Professor Christoph Lindner

Beautiful. And what about you, Damien?

00:04:39:00 - 00:05:13:01

Damien Roach

I would echo what I said about, you know, I'm really happy to be here. It's, super interesting topic and so crucial to look at all of these issues at this particular moment in time. My path has been and continues to be quite an unpredictable one. I think one of the great things about being able to, look back over, you know, the past 20 years is starting to understand how dynamic the world at large, but also the industries that we're all engaged in are.

00:05:13:03 - 00:05:38:08

Damien Roach

When I started studying, I did my MA in painting at the RCA, and when I did that, I made the website for the students union in my at the end of my first year, I think, and with the money that I got from doing that, I bought my first laptop. So you have to think about the fact that, you know, first year MA,

00:05:38:10 - 00:06:03:10

Damien Roach

and that was that when I first had a laptop. And I was always interested in, you know, making digital work and so on and doing whatever way I could. But it's just think how different things are from that point. So now I've been, you know, consistently exhibiting and kind of continuing with my artistic practice, but I've also been teaching and working in design and creative direction and, you know, sound in music as well.

00:06:03:12 - 00:06:39:17

Damien Roach

I think that the whole landscape has transformed so much in the sense that creatives and practitioners who do work across many different fields are so much more common than they were at the time. And it was something that was often, you know, kind of spoken about with a bit of alarm and concern from those around me, including cheetahs, to be fair at the idea of, you know, having this kind of multi-hyphenate mode of existing within the field because it was often in general met with a little bit of suspicion, you know, what is it that you are?

00:06:39:17 - 00:07:00:13

Damien Roach

What do you want to actually do? And if you are working across many different fields, this idea that possibly you're not taking any of them seriously or something, but I've always just been very interested in so many different things and, try to find as many different ways I could to to explore and produce and find out and communicate.

00:07:00:15 - 00:07:23:14

Damien Roach

So through just the chance of the way that things have changed in the world and so on, having that diversity to, you know, my skill set and experience and interests has ended up being a really valuable tool in navigating the present and future that is so unpredictable and that, you know, no one really knows what's coming next.

00:07:23:14 - 00:07:41:04

Damien Roach

So I think looking back, I feel that that's something I'm very keen to kind of share. You know, this sense that trying to keep as many doors open, maybe the most important one being, you know, the door of your mind and your imagination.

00:07:41:06 - 00:08:01:03

Professor Christoph Lindner

Many of our listeners are going to be tuning into this episode because they are either contemplating a creative career or maybe at a stage in their creative career where they're wanting to figure out how to take the next step. So they're going to be looking to us in this conversation to come up with tips and ideas that can support and help them.

00:08:01:05 - 00:08:39:11

Professor Christoph Lindner

But we're already getting some great ideas here, and two things I want to pick up on which something you said, Zey, and then something you said, Damien. Zey you mentioned being interested in art before you even knew what it was. And that made me think about how delicate those moments can be, where, you know, I wonder how many people have just an early interest in creativity and that creativity gets kind of closed down or discouraged, or you don't get the confidence or the support or the pathway, whatever it is you need to keep exploring and developing it.

00:08:39:13 - 00:09:19:24

Professor Christoph Lindner

And Damien, you know, you mentioned you describe yourself as partly a multi-hyphenate practitioner. And you became a multi-hyphenate practitioner before that was particularly common. But I kind of wonder in today's world, is there any other way to be, you know, is it really possible to not be multi-hyphenated in some way? But you also mentioned the unpredictable nature of your path, and I think that's something that resonates probably with most people's careers in any profession, but especially the creative industries, is that you cannot predict where the next opportunity is.

00:09:20:01 - 00:09:38:16

Professor Christoph Lindner

And how do you remain optimistic and open about the possibilities when you don't know what comes next? So Zey could you maybe share a bit on what you think helps nurture creativity in young people and sustain it through to university?

00:09:38:19 - 00:10:15:04

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I think thinking about some of the things that you said, Damien, I think the thing that is a thread, probably through both our experiences, is that initial interest and an interest, not necessarily in the work that you can produce, but actually the meaning of what your work is. And so I think about those days where I would spend just days trying to capture, in a very visual way, what life was like in a north London council estate.

00:10:15:04 - 00:10:40:09

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

You know, that was my interest. It was interesting to me and quite unique. And I think there's something about having an openness and having an environment that allows you to to do that. I, I didn't come from an academic family, so they just thought it was quite quirky that I always had, like a notebook. And I was always.

00:10:40:11 - 00:11:20:00

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Yeah. And it was their fault - they gave me a camera when I was five. And so, you know, and all my money was spent on taking pictures and developing them at Boots. And I think for our listeners, there's something that they have to cling on to, which is that inner desire of, of interest that this is important, and that that shouldn't be swayed by a lot of the arguments that we hear about or that is are important because we know that it can be and that interest can have a social impact, a cultural impact and economic impact.

00:11:20:00 - 00:11:54:03

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

For me, it it helped me socially, to get into spaces that I never thought that I would be into. And I think for anybody who's considering or amongst the noise of, you know, is it valuable to study art and would I get a job in all these real tensions and questions? I think what's really important is, those quiet moments of interest, those quiet moments of like, this is important not just to me, but it's important.

00:11:54:03 - 00:12:03:08

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

It will be important to other people. And I think that spurs what you do, what you decide to do, and bring that out into the world.

00:12:03:10 - 00:12:39:16

Damien Roach

I think there's a lot to be said for really seeking and pursuing those kind of honest elements of the self. You know what really matters to you? What do you actually want to spend your time thinking about and doing? I think you know, finding those things and holding onto them and nurturing them is so key, because once you do those interests that are just so deeply a part of you will resonate and support the kind of dynamism and energy.

00:12:39:16 - 00:13:10:01

Damien Roach

It's what it is that you're doing that is very hard to disrupt. And it's easy to kind of get distracted by the audience in a sense, you know, by what what is it that everyone's doing and what's interesting and what people talking about. But again, going back to this idea of, you know, the dynamism of, of society, of, you know, every industry, particularly at the moment, you know, nobody knows what everyone is going to be thinking about, you know, next week, next year, you know, in five years.

00:13:10:03 - 00:13:34:09

Damien Roach

And so if you're responding solely to, you know, what's happening right now and what people are making and what people are talking about, you're already you're always behind because that's already happened. So I think there's a lot to be said for kind of trusting that, you know, your voice nurturing that. So then you can bring people into your world, you know, follow those instincts and, and hone them.

00:13:34:11 - 00:14:07:20

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think, maybe that's how I probably define an entrepreneurial mindset. So I think a lot of times we think of an entrepreneur as someone who's like, self-promoting and can get into rooms and, you know, it's about commerce. But actually that interest in that honesty is what I would define as being entrepreneurial. And link that to agency that you have an agency to to know that your interest matters and that you can bring work into the world that also matters.

00:14:07:22 - 00:14:31:11

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And if you can get paid for it, that's really great. But there has to be an honesty of what you think you can produce. I'd be really interested in knowing kind of how you see that interest in talent. So for me, I probably would say talent might get you into the door, but it might keep you in a room unless you do have that passion and that interest.

00:14:31:13 - 00:14:57:16

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

But, we talk a lot about talented students, talented artists, talented designers. I think that that needs to be problematised. You know, there are issues with the word talent, but it would be interesting. I'd be interested in knowing how you see those things kind of collectively as an artist, like, would you call yourself a talented artist?

00:14:57:18 - 00:15:37:03

Damien Roach

I agree with you fully that, you know, talent is in a sense an overrated attribute. Because what I see and what I've experienced as being maybe even more important and, you know, a quality that you can make a decision to develop oneself is, resilience. So there will always be, you know, ups and downs, you know, in moments when there's a lot happening and a lot of interest and other moments when it's a bit quieter and, times when you feel very sure about, you know, what needs to be done and other times when you don't.

00:15:37:05 - 00:16:11:23

Damien Roach

And, I think, you know, trying to be as resilient as you as you can and patient and, focused is just so, so important. So, yes, it's great to be, you know, if, if someone is, has a lot of talent, that's really excellent, of course. But, you know, in the end, that quality of just, you know, keep or that ability to just kind of keep going in the face of, you know, adversity in the times when things aren't really working out is, is is really key.

00:16:12:00 - 00:16:41:03

Damien Roach

Another thing I'd like to say is, I think, you know, there's obviously a lot that one might seek in the outside world. So opportunities, jobs, exhibition wins or, you know, whatever it might be, placements. And that's all really important and really great. But I think waiting for the world to open up for you is also maybe, you know, a kind of red herring.

00:16:41:05 - 00:17:27:05

Damien Roach

It doesn't matter which, you know, what particular industry you're working in. I think trying to make your world make things happen, however, that might look. So making things happen could be giving that person a call you haven't seen for a while, and having a coffee and talking about your ideas. It could be going to an exhibition or going to an event or reading the book, you know, taking the trip, setting up some kind of project yourself or making something that nobody's asked for, but just out of your own interest, you know, really building that world and not waiting for permission to do things and to exist, and take a bit of space

00:17:27:05 - 00:18:01:07

Damien Roach

in, in, out there in, you know, the big old world. I think that's really, really important because, it's it's really easy to kind of think that access and permission is something that comes externally, when in fact, you know, you do have agency, as he said. So earlier. So I think this is another thing as well, you know, trying to sort of take the initiative, about just doing things and making stuff happen, given that we are, speaking about entrepreneurship.

00:18:01:09 - 00:18:28:18

Damien Roach

I do think it's important to, you know, try and be aware of ways in which, you know, you can use your skills in ways that, can help you pay your rent. Sometimes it's not it's not always obvious where that can happen, but, you know, we've been speaking a lot about these, you know, problem solving skills and ideation and things like that.

00:18:28:20 - 00:18:55:16

Damien Roach

I know personally I have always sustained some kind of teaching practice throughout, you know, since, since, you know, finishing my studies. So the way that started, you know, in a very practical way, I, I remember, like, reaching out to places I had studied before and just saying, you know, seeing if they wanted someone to come in and do it all cool, you know, do some, 1 to 1 tutorials or whatever.

00:18:55:18 - 00:19:19:17

Damien Roach

And, you know, you go and you, you build up your experience and, you know, you, you, you make connections there and, again, it's the same thing with saying about, you know, not waiting for the world to kind of open up for, you know, some of those doors you have to it's an interesting thing. You know, sometimes there are doors that you don't realise are there.

00:19:19:17 - 00:19:56:18

Damien Roach

So part of, you know, knocking on a door is realising that door is even there. So I think really trying to sort of look at, with an open mind that your skill set and thinking, well, okay, where, where can that be valuable? And, you know, not every single thing you do is going to be, you know, even like the dream job or this you might find yourself doing things that you didn't even think of that are actually really interesting and really good, you know, so I think, you know, trying to take initiative in, in forging those kind of paths for yourself is really, really important.

00:19:56:18 - 00:20:37:15

Damien Roach

And I think there may be some people listening who hear the words, you know, entrepreneurial and think, well, that's not me. I'm not, you know, I'm not a business person. I don't want to think that way. But again, you know what both Christoph and Zey have said already, I think the thinking through that term, in a wider way, where really what we're talking about is, is that sense of, you know, doing and having a vision and seeing it through and being kind of, tight and kind of taking responsibility really for your own, development and, and the realisation of your goals.

00:20:37:17 - 00:20:51:10

Damien Roach

It doesn't have to be, purely about kind of commerce and business. It's about doing things and, and making a mark, having a vision. And, again, to go back to that idea, you know, building your world.

00:20:51:12 - 00:21:16:10

Professor Christoph Lindner

Yeah. I mean, that's really helpful because what we're not describing here is the hyphenated construction of, say, the artist stockbroker, although that's fine if that's your art in your practice. Put those two things together. But we're really saying is that in creative fields that practitioners and students are developing skills that really help them navigate a world that is in constant change.

00:21:16:12 - 00:21:40:20

Professor Christoph Lindner

So being resilient, the ability to survive and thrive under conditions of risk and precarity. Sadly, that's something that creative practitioners have needed for millennia. Right. But also, what are the skills do we learn in creative disciplines that allow us to have a presence and agency and find joy and make a difference in the world? And I suggest that quite a few.

00:21:40:20 - 00:21:44:18

Professor Christoph Lindner

But I'm curious which ones you think, which ones come to mind for you?

00:21:44:20 - 00:21:59:16

Damien Roach

The flexibility, dynamism, open mindedness, creative thinking, these, things that, you know, they never go out of date or out of style. It doesn't matter what software you're using, what room you know, you're standing in, those skills will will serve you well.

00:21:59:17 - 00:22:31:00

Professor Christoph Lindner

Absolutely. And I like to hope. I don't know if I'm right. We'll find out soon. But I like to hope that in the age of AI, what we do in creative fields will actually grow in value and urgency. Because where do new ideas come from? You know, where does innovation, new approaches, difference in whatever form come from and the ability to think creatively but also critically and then express that in some form of making whatever form that takes.

00:22:31:02 - 00:22:59:22

Professor Christoph Lindner

I feel like the world is going to need more and more of that. And many fields that have not traditionally recruited from creative disciplines might well want to start thinking about recruiting from us, because we can offer things, that will be really, really valuable to organisations, communities, governments, businesses, etc. as we navigate a world where what is easy to replicate will just get replicated.

00:22:59:24 - 00:23:07:02

Professor Christoph Lindner

And so I think the value of creativity in that world is going to become much higher in the future.

00:23:07:04 - 00:23:55:19

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Yeah, I completely agree because I, I, I'm in many conversations where, you know, I an emerging technology is like at the top of the list and the conversation very quickly becomes based in, in a fear of, you know, AI is going to take our jobs and some real kind of ethical questions about AI as well. And I think on top of that conversation, there is a real value in somebody who has studied a creative subject which, like you said, brings them above just what can be replicated, but real be a real problem solver in terms of, I think, at the heart of, what I see from students at the heart of every student I've

00:23:55:19 - 00:24:20:13

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

ever taught, and I've taught thousands, not to give away my age is a real curiosity in the world, and I think that's something that emerging technology just cannot give us that curiosity of like, well, why? And what's next? All it can give us is a scraping of what's already been done. And that's valuable, you know, in, in certain industries.

00:24:20:15 - 00:24:45:09

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

But if we are to push forward, if we are to get something new to and to really deal with some of the real inequalities in the world, it's not going to come from, yeah, emerging technologies, it's going to come from a creative background. People that understand criticality know how to answer questions, know how to ask the right questions in order to get new answers into the world.

00:24:45:09 - 00:24:47:16

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think that's of great value.

00:24:47:18 - 00:25:17:01

Damien Roach

Another really important part of, educational experience and experience out in the world, and the kinds of things where, talking about, you know, the creative industries is, are the people, you know, embracing what you can learn from, just hearing about other people's experiences, engaging in their way of seeing things, trying to, you know, understand and embrace different ways of thinking and doing and knowing.

00:25:17:03 - 00:25:46:07

Damien Roach

I think that, the communities that, you know, you kind of, the communities that I've been lucky enough to become a part of throughout all of those different workplaces and educational experiences has been so valuable because these people, also the industry in some sense, I think going back to the, one of the points earlier about not waiting for the world to kind of open up to you, it can be quite easy.

00:25:46:07 - 00:26:09:12

Damien Roach

I think, particularly, you know, in sort of masters and so on to think about the companies or the curators or the artists who are kind of out there and already, you know, doing really well or very visible, but and it's easy to forget, actually, that, you know, the people that are around you when you're studying, they are your industry.

00:26:09:15 - 00:26:32:09

Damien Roach

You know, you're all that, you know, studying at the same time. You're going to be going out into the world and doing your things and setting stuff up. So I think it's very easy to kind of be looking out into the horizon when actually you're surrounded by, you know, your network, your people, your, your peers. So keeping sight of that throughout study.

00:26:32:09 - 00:26:35:02

Damien Roach

But then also, you know, out in the walls after.

00:26:35:04 - 00:27:03:21

Professor Christoph Lindner

Yeah, that's a great point. And I've observed that quite a few times at the RCA. And I remember, we had a reunion, a 50 year reunion for the ArtBar at the RCA, which is this legendary space right at the core of the College that has, hosted so many amazing musicians, playing live over many, many decades, including The Clash and Roxy Music and apparently, I think the Rolling Stones at one point hung out.

00:27:03:21 - 00:27:21:16

Professor Christoph Lindner

I'm not sure if they played, but they hung out there. But anyway, I was talking to these alumni from the early 1970s who all studied together, and they still get together once a year and go on holiday. And they said exactly what you said, Damian, that they didn't realise it at the time, but they were each other's network.

00:27:21:18 - 00:27:42:09

Professor Christoph Lindner

And as the careers grew and they each want a different direction, someone went into, curating. Someone became a practicing visual artist, another person became a graphic designer. And I think a fourth one was was doing filmmaking. But they were resource to each other and they helped each other navigate, but also, helped each other open doors.

00:27:42:15 - 00:28:01:23

Professor Christoph Lindner

And there was something about the camaraderie of that that really just made me feel really good. Like, you know, no one has to be alone. And I think that's one of the values of studying is that you join a community and, and hopefully that community in some form will be there with you and for you as you go through your career.

00:28:01:23 - 00:28:02:11

Professor Christoph Lindner

Yeah.

00:28:02:13 - 00:28:34:09

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think that's a really important part of education. And I think for me, there's something about really acknowledging that more people should have access to that. You know, that we are three very highly educated people who sit in in the room of, you know, talking about this, but it's such an uneven, creative industry is really uneven.

00:28:34:11 - 00:29:08:19

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

There's so many inequalities. And so I'm thinking about those networks and being able to, to have an institution like the RCA really level some of those playing fields for, for people, so that it's not just a place where we can celebrate talent, which we have lots of, but it's a place where people can really find those connections, that the gaps that we all know and inequality can be lessened where you can find, you know, your tribe, your people.

00:29:08:23 - 00:29:41:10

Professor Christoph Lindner

Yeah. And let me bring into the conversation something we were talking about casually before we pushed the record button, which was, the word failure. So that's a very heavy word. It's a big word. It's an F word. Literally. And what I thought was so interesting in our discussion, was, Damian, you brought it up and you said something about the kind of, positivity, the value, the joy of failure and how you might play with it.

00:29:41:12 - 00:29:43:04

Professor Christoph Lindner

Do you want to bring that in?

00:29:43:06 - 00:30:17:10

Damien Roach

Yeah. I think that making mistakes and failing is an incredibly scary thing. And, it's it's very tempting to to try hard to not fail and to and to not put yourself in situations where things could go wrong, but in fact, it turns out that that failing is really, really useful because you kind of, you know, you get knocked down and you get back up, you survive it and you realise that there's nothing to be afraid of.

00:30:17:10 - 00:30:51:24

Damien Roach

You know, you survive and you move on. And inside of a failure is always learning. If you're truly putting yourself in a situation where something unpredictable and new and, you know, exciting can happen, there's always the danger of things going wrong. So if you aren't putting yourself in, you know, those, zones of practice where you feel a little bit uneasy, a bit uncertain, a bit out of your depth, then maybe you're not quite doing it right.

00:30:51:24 - 00:30:59:04

Damien Roach

So I think running towards that possibility of things going wrong is such an important, you know, thing to do 100%.

00:30:59:04 - 00:31:27:14

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Yeah. I completely agree with you. There's something really nice in terms of being able to experiment like the new kind of hone your voice. You know, how to position yourself, you know how to speak about your work. You know, you are able to articulate that inherent interest that we talked about at the beginning of this episode. But I also think that perhaps the definition of failure needs to be unpacked a little bit.

00:31:27:16 - 00:31:49:24

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

You know, I think about my own art school journey. I remember that first year I felt feedback was failure. Like, if you didn't say it was like, the best thing that you'd ever seen, I crumpled into this little ball of, like, what does this mean? Why does that why is this so much critique about my work?

00:31:50:01 - 00:32:13:14

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And so I think there is something about how we actually even think about failure and how students think about failure. But that needs to probably be so much more articulated in our pedagogy and what we do, because feedback is, you know, now I'm like, feedback's wonderful. Please give me some feedback. I want this to be the best that it could be.

00:32:13:14 - 00:32:37:08

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

I want to be able to, you know, really think about and develop work and ideas that stand the test of time. Right. And it goes back to that resilience. But yeah, it did make me think, what do students think about failure? Because I yeah, I definitely I'm just like, success to me was I got into a career, no one said anything.

00:32:37:13 - 00:33:03:24

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I got out. But how valuable was that for my practice? But it was the thing that I stretched for. And it goes back to how we define success as well. And I think our students are on this journey with us in a world we've all said is changing. And part of what's really special about that studio culture is that safety.

00:33:03:24 - 00:33:26:19

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think if we're able to, allow students to feel safe in their failure and safe in experimenting, then it's so much better outside in the world where real, you know, real critique comes, real rejection comes, which also sometimes feels like failure, but is just a stepping stone of what we know we can get to.

00:33:26:24 - 00:33:43:17

Professor Christoph Lindner

So this is quite philosophical. Let's get a bit more pragmatic. Let me just push back on some of these ideas a little bit, just to see what you think. Yeah. So what I, what I love here is this idea we should reclaim the concept of failure or the experience of failure. I love the idea that our pedagogy should teach failure.

00:33:43:17 - 00:34:09:22

Professor Christoph Lindner

Yeah. And and help us understand its productivity and so on. A couple weeks ago, we had a Festival of AI week-long festival at the RCA exploring all aspects of AI. It just makes me think maybe we should have a festival of failure, you know, bring it all together across the RCA and show it. And then it makes me think of the, you know, the final show that many art and design schools have right at the very end of the year, students picking the strongest, best, most superlative work.

00:34:09:22 - 00:34:32:08

Professor Christoph Lindner

And that's what you exhibit to the world. But what would happen if we said, you know, here's the worst thing I made all year. What do you think? And what can we learn from that? But universities are a very special place where we, we, we really do consciously try to create the spaces and the support for people to experiment with failure.

00:34:32:10 - 00:35:01:24

Professor Christoph Lindner

Once you graduate and you're building a career, the stakes go up radically. And so how would you advise young creative professionals who want to take more risk, who want to be in that zone of discomfort that you described? Damien, who value feedback and value the experience you gain from failure but cannot afford next month's rent. Don't know where the next job is coming from.

00:35:02:01 - 00:35:08:06

Professor Christoph Lindner

May not even know what country they're going to be living in in two months time. How do you approach them?

00:35:08:08 - 00:35:35:05

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

I think for me, I kind of love the idea of a festival of failure. I don't know if it will go down well, but I want one of the things I love about our shows here is not the final outcome, which I know is is the thing that we display. But what I love here is being able to talk to students about the process of how they got to that final outcome.

00:35:35:07 - 00:36:05:19

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think for me, it's it's less about success or failure, but being able to articulate how you got somewhere, and I think that's as valuable in, in industry and in your career. And I, I totally get the economic stakes and the high value, you know, I’ve been there. Where's my rent coming from? Shall I have baked beans or shall I, you know, are we going to have another jacket potato today?

00:36:06:00 - 00:36:36:08

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

So I totally get that. But I think there is something about process that has to be celebrated and maybe not a show of failure, but a show of process that got you to wherever you were thinking about, I think would be really valuable. And I, as somebody who worked in industry for, you know, for a short amount of time, I think that's what helped me to be successful, because I was able to bring an articulation of how I got to the end product.

00:36:36:10 - 00:37:05:16

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

You may have hated the end product, but you always understood the research. It was always grounded. There was always a way of being able to articulate it. And I think even in these really tight spaces that our students are trying to fit into, there is always a conversation and a value in getting them to articulate that curiosity. The research, a criticality that led to decision making, that led to the final outcome.

00:37:05:19 - 00:37:38:02

Damien Roach

Yeah, it's such an interesting idea. I say that in terms of, creative practice that the the most dangerous path is the, the one that appears to be the safest, because you can't afford to play it safe. It's very counterintuitive. But if you play it safe, then essentially what you're doing is you're, you're making yourself more like everything else is out there.

00:37:38:04 - 00:38:08:04

Damien Roach

And there are millions of, you know, talented people who are as culturally aware as you and can identify, you know, the current trends and mimic them or, you know, do what they can to fit in. But your greatest kind of asset is what's different. And it might be scary, and not everyone will necessarily like it, but if it's yours, it's yours, you know?

00:38:08:04 - 00:38:36:22

Damien Roach

And that's the thing that in the right environment, which does exist and, you know, if there's someone in something, where that's human, where that will be embraced, then you're the only person who has those qualities or has those interests or those skills. So embracing difference and innovation and really following your instincts. That, of course though, isn't easy.

00:38:37:03 - 00:39:06:08

Damien Roach

It's not about not working. It's not about not being self-critical, and not listening to the criticism of others, you know, not trying to push and develop and, and, you know, hone those things. It's not like the easy routes. But I think it's the, the path that will actually end up bringing more opportunity, open more doors and, be more, fulfilling ultimately as well.

00:39:06:10 - 00:39:11:15

Damien Roach

So I think that's an important thing to keep in the, you know, the front of the mind trainee.

00:39:11:17 - 00:39:51:01

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think that's what we want for our students. And when you're talking, there's a real sense of professional confidence and an identity. And I don't mean confidence. Confidence can be performed, but I mean confidence and like a clarity. And I think that's something that is really important and is needed across sectors. It's like, a real clarity in, you know, what questions drive you, you know, what context your work belongs in and you've been able to articulate that.

00:39:51:06 - 00:40:15:17

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

And I think people who hire other people are drawn to that clarity. You want someone to be able to come into your organisation and be really clear about what they can bring and what they can produce. And a huge part of that professional identity is, is about confidence and resilience and a couple of an agency and a couple of other things that we talked about.

00:40:15:22 - 00:40:16:21

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

Yeah. Today.

00:40:16:23 - 00:40:51:00

Professor Christoph Lindner

And before we wrap up, I've been thinking of something throughout the conversation because we keep talking about creative careers. And when I think of that, it always reminds me of the moment of graduation - Convocation, we call it here. And, you know, every university has their own version of it. But we get to look out over thousands of graduating students and their families and their friends at the moment when they transition from being a student to a graduate.

00:40:51:02 - 00:41:13:03

Professor Christoph Lindner

And there's a convention in that moment where whoever speaking, you know, will give some kind of advice, you know, remember this, remember that, I remember last year, Nick Cave, the musician received an honorary doctorate, and he spoke to the students, and he said, you know, to remember that artists are the guardians of the soul of the world.

00:41:13:05 - 00:41:30:08

Professor Christoph Lindner

And that really stuck with me. Very powerful advice, very powerful idea. But imagine you're up there giving that speech. You have a chance to say something to those students, and it doesn't have to be dramatic. It doesn't have to be big, but it has to be honest. What would you tell them?

00:41:30:10 - 00:42:00:12

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

I'm tempted to just go with Nick Cave! I think I would ask them to just to remember. To remember their experience, to remember each other, remember each other when they're in rooms where opportunity is presented. I know that's how I got my start in, in the industry. It was not necessarily being in those rooms, but being graduates.

00:42:00:12 - 00:42:23:08

Professor Zey Suka-Bill

People that worked alongside me seen my work and then had someone say, oh, can someone do this? And they mentioned my name. And that's how I got my first commission. So it would be simply just to remember, remember, the time that you spent here, remember each other and to hold on to to that experience as you go forward.

00:42:23:10 - 00:43:00:03

Damien Roach

Maybe what I do is, you know, like, I acknowledge the task that I was up there to say something, inspiring and or useful and, just hold the microphone out to the audience and just get them to say, you know, just say a word or something that is meaningful to them. And essentially, you know, with the extension of the microphone towards the audience, it's a kind of, you know, metaphorical and actual passing of the baton.

00:43:00:03 - 00:43:16:23

Damien Roach

And I think that in that moment, maybe the most important thing to be delivered is that sense that it's now that time to speak and to feel confidence. To speak and so, you know, to be heard, something that might be what to Damien.

00:43:16:23 - 00:43:39:16

Professor Christoph Lindner

Those are beautiful thoughts on which to wrap up our conversation. And Zey and Damien, I want to thank you both for all that you've shared, as well as some of your really insightful tips for people wanting to create, or build, a creative career. And I think there's a lot in this conversation for us to take away and reflect on.

00:43:39:16 - 00:44:17:10

Professor Christoph Lindner

And I particularly value the way in both of your comments throughout our time together. Something I heard was the importance of being generous, you know, to each other and to others. And I think that's a really important thing to hang on to. I also heard a lot of really inspiring words about how a creative education gives you and allows you to take into your career some really important qualities, such as confidence, optimism, openness, resilience, agency.

00:44:17:12 - 00:44:53:11

Professor Christoph Lindner

You talked passionately about the importance of embracing change and also authentically for real valuing difference. And also what comes if we reframe failure as something else, maybe as is as experience or as success or as feedback, but the importance of reframing failure and something I also heard, which I don't know if you would agree with, is that ultimately, a big part of a creative career is learning how to be yourself.

00:44:53:13 - 00:45:20:05

Professor Christoph Lindner

Which sounds like a cliche, but actually, is that the kind of center of a lot of what we've talked about? And what I loved about your comments was being yourself. It's not just important for you, it actually matters and it matters to others. So thank you so much, and I hope that lots of people who are listening, gain a bit more confidence or, the excitement, to launch into their creative careers.

00:45:20:07 - 00:45:35:13

Professor Christoph Lindner

And I want to thank our listeners. And if you'd like to hear more from us, please do like the episode or subscribe to the podcast.

00:45:35:15 - 00:46:07:07

Outro

This podcast is from the Royal College of Art, home to the next generation of artists, innovators and entrepreneurs, and the world's number one art and design university. You can learn more about our programs at RCA.ac.uk, as well as finding news and events relating to the College, and our application portal if you're interested in studying at the RCA.